Transcript below
This June, the Human Rights Campaign declared a state of emergency for LGBTQ+ people for the first time in the organization’s 40-year history. And unfortunately, students are not immune to the dangerous anti-queer assaults, legislatively, or physically.
Because of the seriousness of these attacks, we've published a Know Your Rights guide for LGBTQ+ students' on gender, dress codes, self-expression, and more, so students are fully aware of their right to be themselves in school.
On this episode of Thinking Freely, you'll hear from:
Produced and hosted by: Nehemiah Bester, communications strategist, ACLU of Maryland
This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land.
TRANSCRIPT
00:01 – 00:06
Nehemiah Bester
What's the school's responsibility to ensure the protection of its LGBTQ students?
00:06 – 00:25
Carlos Childs
They're responsible for everyone making sure that no student is feeling like their rights are being violated or whether they're being persecuted just for their sexual orientation or gender identity. So, the school has to protect all students, not just the ones that they agree with.
00:34 – 00:59
Nehemiah Bester
You listening to Thinking Freely with the ACLU of Maryland. The show that talks about what's happening politically in Maryland, from the courts to the streets and everywhere in between, I'm your host Nehemiah Bester. Around this same time last year, one of my colleagues, Alicia Smith, said something that I thought was seriously profound, “Pride is more than a month, it's a mentality and like any mentality.”
00:59 – 01:24
Nehemiah Bester
And like any mentality, it determines how you interpret and respond to certain situations. LBGTQ+ rights have been under siege for a time, with some progress here and there but also some setbacks. Including the Human Rights Campaign declaring a state of emergency for LGBTQ+ people this June for the first time in the organization’s 40-year history.
01:24 – 01:56
Nehemiah Bester
And unfortunately, students have not been immune to the dangerous anti-queer assaults, legislatively or physically. According to the national ACLU, more than 400 anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been introduced this year alone, as waves of homophobia and transphobia threaten the safety of queer community members. In addition, too many intellectual spaces where diversity and curiosity are celebrated and respectfully contested are being denied altogether.
01:57 – 02:28
Nehemiah Bester
Entire books deemed too controversial are being banned from the shelves of libraries. Imagine a world where Fahrenheit 451, the dystopian novel by Ray Bradbury is actually taking place, but instead of burning books, they’re being thrown in a more figurative fire. Amanda Gorman’s poem The Hills We Climb, read at President Joe Biden’s inauguration, was recently banned in Florida for its “gender ideology and indoctrination.”
02:28 – 02:56
Nehemiah Bester
While All Boys Aren’t Blue by George M. Johnson was banned in Maryland’s Wicomico County because of its story of a Black man growing up queer. When communities are most harmed the ACLU of Maryland’s mentality is to respond. The ACLU of Maryland offers a Know Your Rights program that informs Marylanders of their rights, so they can make informed decisions, be good witnesses when violations occur, and know their options for taking action.
02:57 – 03:28
Nehemiah Bester
We just published on our website a Know Your Rights on LGBTQ+ students’ rights at school, including dress codes, gender, self-expression, and more. So that students in school are fully aware that they have the right to be themselves. Go to aclu-md.org/kyr to learn more. To tell us more about this is Carlos Childs. Carlos is the ACLU of Maryland’s Regional Community Organizer for Southern Maryland.
03:28 – 03:40
Nehemiah Bester
He was raised in Waldorf, Maryland and for years, he has been a Southern Maryland activist working on legal justice reform, building worker power, advancing environmental and housing rights, and more.
03:43 – 03:44
Nehemiah Bester
Carlos, thanks so much for joining me today.
03:45 – 03:52
Carlos Childs
Thank you, thank you. Always glad to be here. That's an amazing statement for me. I feel, I feel accomplished now.
03:53 – 04:19
Nehemiah Bester
Okay, great. You've done a lot of really, really great work. And so, as you know, it's Pride month. And, you know, we put together one of our KYR (Know Your Rights) content pieces so that LGBTQ students here in Maryland are fully aware of their rights at school when it comes to, you know, dress code, their own self-expression, gender identity, you name it.
04:19 – 04:28
Nehemiah Bester
So, let's just jump right into it. Let's talk about freedom of expression first. What should students know about how they can express themselves in school?
04:29 – 04:48
Carlos Childs
Yeah, the first thing is that one, every student has the right to express themselves in that it's not just some right that we just say, oh yeah, you have the right to do that. It even goes to your constitutional right and your First Amendment right, which allows me to express your views and identity through your clothing as well.
04:49 – 05:11
Carlos Childs
And just letting students know that, hey, just because you are LGBTQ or you want to have a shirt or pants or any type of clothing item that expresses your pro LGBTQ pro political brand and stuff or whatever. As long as it's within the actual dress code of the school, you're free to do you and wear what expresses you to your peers and just that.
05:12 – 05:24
Nehemiah Bester
So, it's more than just like, you know, political things that you can wear like you can if you say, for example, if somebody were to wear, like a Pan-African flag like that would be acceptable in school?
05:25 – 05:38
Carlos Childs
Oh, definitely. Yeah. If you wanted to wear a Pan-African flag, if you if you want to wear a t-shirt with a whole bunch of cartoon characters on it, you can. It's nothing stops you as long as it's within the actual school dress code itself.
05:39 – 06:02
Nehemiah Bester
Okay. Okay. So, staying on dress codes, you know, I remember in school, you know, you know, things like spaghetti straps were banned. No, tank tops, no sandals. Everything had to be fingertip length. What were some of the things that you remember and what should students be aware of when it comes to dress code, particularly when it's based on gender?
06:02 – 06:29
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, definitely. I remember the same exact things. If you had a spaghetti strap making sure that it's like two fingertip length on and make sure that you can put your hands down, that your pants or your dress comes close to that. It's really, I mean, but even on top of that, as like all of us probably saw, it was majority Black girls and brown girls who actually faced the actual like repercussions of that.
06:29 – 06:52
Carlos Childs
It would be telling them, oh, your tights are too tight. You can’t wear x, y and z where their white peers can. But specifically for LGBTQ related students is that federal law prohibits any public school from mandating gender specific dress codes. So, if you identify as male and you want to wear a dress, a school cannot say, whoa, hold up that doesn't fit with our gender stereotype of what you should wear.
06:52 – 07:12
Carlos Childs
And then also making sure that people feel comfortable in whatever clothes that they're in and making sure that a school cannot tell you that that you have to fit whatever their image of your gender is or what they conceive your gender to be.
07:12 – 07:36
Nehemiah Bester
So, like saying, like with that topic on dress codes, you know, we touched on it a bit, but something I wanted to ask you. What about when it comes to transgender and gender nonconforming students, you know, not you know, not only on dress code, but, you know access to things like restrooms and locker rooms. What are what are what are their rights there?
07:36 – 08:03
Carlos Childs
Yeah, definitely. As far as clothing is the same as before, you have the right to wear whatever fits your gender identity or your gender expression and whatever makes you feel comfortable as well within the actual dress code itself. But as far as like locker rooms, restrooms, we want every LGBTQ+ trans non-binary person to know that they have the right to use the locker room or restroom that fits within their gender identity.
08:03 – 08:27
Carlos Childs
It's not a thing just because you are perceived a certain way or that the school would like it to be a certain way that you have to actually conform to that. And that also to let them know that you should not under any circumstances be forced to use the nurse's bathroom, the staff bathroom or some or some secluded kind of separate but equal version of what a school may be trying to do for you.
08:28 – 08:47
Nehemiah Bester
Right. I remember there was a lot of that going on, you know, back when I was in high school ages ago. But I know as long, as long as I've been in school, you know, I wanted to be in and participate in clubs and extracurricular activities, you know, because of the community aspect, the belonging that comes with that.
08:48 – 09:03
Nehemiah Bester
Of course, my experience as cisgendered man is different from LGBTQIA individuals. But talk to me about student led groups. You know, GSA's and other spaces where students can find community. What does the federal law say about that?
09:03 – 09:48
Carlos Childs
Yeah, definitely. Well for all the people listening a GSA stands for Gay-Straight Alliance, depending on where you live at, and you may have them in your middle school or your high school. But what it really is, is a non-curricular club that that brings LGBTQ+ and cis straight students together to work on things, fun things like building community, working towards stopping the discrimination that LGBTQ students face within the school and also just creating like a safe space for the students to come together to talk, just have you know, be a kid and not and not feel that like systemic pressure.
09:49 – 10:12
Carlos Childs
And the kind of in the stereotype of oh, straight students and like LGBTQ students aren't, they don't mix or there's issues between them. To really show no we're all students and we all care about each other, and we just want to see each other treated well. And as far as like federal law is concerned, and the federal law actually prohibits public high schools from banning or not allowing noncurricular clubs from treating GSAs differently.
10:12 – 10:34
Carlos Childs
So, if you're a student and you want to set up a GSA, a school cannot tell you, oh, no, you cannot do this specifically, but they let other non-curricular clubs exist as well. So, we always tell people is if you want to start one, feel free to talk to a trusted staff member or teacher and then start the process to actually set one up.
10:34 – 10:50
Nehemiah Bester
On a more serious, what should students do if they feel like they are being harassed or threatened? Sort of like the opposite of what you just summarized. What's the school's responsibility to ensure the protection of its students?
10:51 – 11:20
Carlos Childs
Yeah, well, first thing, if any student is being harassed, bullied, threatened, all of it. First thing you want to do is tell a trusted adult school staff member, make sure you take detailed notes of it yourself. Write it down, document what date this happened, time, and also tell a trusted friend. Because the last thing we want to see is when you bring it to the school that they say, okay, well, this is just you saying that. It's like no, other people can back the story up as well.
11:21 – 11:57
Carlos Childs
And as far as what the public schools are responsible for, they're responsible for, one, making sure that all students are in a safe learning space that no student is feeling like their rights are being violated or that they're being persecuted just for their sexual orientation or gender identity. But also, they're responsible for responding to harassment, to people misgendering them, invasive questions, and also intentionally detonating by like not just staff, but also other students or parents as well.
11:57 – 12:14
Carlos Childs
And that also no school can retaliate against a parent or student just for filing a complaint about discrimination. So, the school has to protect all students, not just the ones that they agree with.
12:15 – 12:40
Nehemiah Bester
Okay. So, on the subject of protecting all students, what about when it comes to like events that all students want to attend, like, you know, proms and homecoming, graduation, you know, those large-scale events? Are students allowed to wear whatever they want to these events? Are they allowed to bring whoever they want to these events, regardless of gender?
12:41 – 13:03
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, first of all, as far as it goes to like dress code for these functions, you 100% have the right to wear whatever makes you feel most comfortable. If you identify as female and you want to wear a suit and vice versa. For people who identify as like male, you can and feel no repercussion for it.
13:03 – 13:21
Carlos Childs
It should not be to were you have to conform to as before, a specific gender stereotype. And that even goes for if you want to run for prom king and queen. That you cannot say just because you're running for prom king you have to wear suit or prom queen you have to wear a dress.
13:21 – 13:45
Carlos Childs
You can wear whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And to the topic of who you would like to bring with you, as long as they would be allowed at any other school event, you can bring them, no matter if it's if they identify as male, female, nonbinary, transgender, whatever. It's whoever you feel most comfortable sharing that moment with.
13:46 – 14:20
Nehemiah Bester
And the other thing I wanted to ask you about was privacy in school. I feel like this comes up often, you know, because, you know…are schools allowed to disclose a person's LGBTQ status? Quite plainly. You know, I think a lot of the excuses there comes down to, you know, like paperwork and documentation, writing things down. But as we know, this can out a person and we don't want that. So, are schools allowed to do that? Are they allowed to disclose a person's LGBTQ status?
14:21 – 14:55
Carlos Childs
No. First of all no school should just be in the habit of just, well one, just asking students flat out, hey, how do you identify or are you LGBTQ+ and then using that against them. That's one wrong right there. But then the second thing is, two is that they do not, or they should not just out someone not even to classmates but to their parents as well without explicit permission from that exact student as well.
14:55 – 15:14
Carlos Childs
And it's not just that because you're in the closet towards your peers or parents, even if at school you're out, that does not give the school the right to actually say, oh, okay, well, since you're out at school, then we have a right to just tell your parents as well because they don't know.
15:14 – 15:44
Carlos Childs
Well, one, they may be putting you in an unsafe environment by doing that. And then two, they don't know personally who you have come out to or haven’t as well. And then also school faculty, students, peers overall should just this refrain from like asking people very invasive questions or kind of making appropriate comments when it comes to someone's sexuality or gender and things like that that really make it uncomfortable in an unwelcoming environment in school.
15:45 – 16:08
Nehemiah Bester
Right. Yeah, I love what you touched on because oftentimes, like, it's not just, you know, the school that, you know, can be potentially harmful, but also like that student has to go home every day. And if they're out, you know, they're not out to their parents or their loved ones or their family members, that creates you know, it's extremely problematic. And you can put them in further harm’s way.
16:08 – 16:31
Carlos Childs
You're definitely right. I mean, you can have you can have students who may leave their house, dressed a certain way when they go to school, change into something that makes them feel more comfortable. And then if you have a school who's just intentionally just telling the parents, oh, yeah, did you know that x, y, and z child is doing this? That like you said, you could be putting that out in a totally dangerous situation, going home.
16:31 – 16:50
Nehemiah Bester
Right. And I remember you and I were talking earlier this month and you brought up to me something I wasn't aware of, but this sort of this sort of rise of the LGBTQ+ banned books specifically in Calvert County. Can you explain it to me. Like what is going on over there?
16:51 – 17:17
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah. It's been it’s been a lot going on in Calvert County, actually. But yes, there has been as we’ve all seen, there's been just this weird national uptick in just anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment that we've seen in just different groups. And it's actually gone past as far as book banning, pass just LGBTQ+ but also trying to ban Black and brown books as well.
17:17 – 17:48
Carlos Childs
So, it's been a combination of stuff. But for Calvert County specifically, there's been one main bad faith actor group that has been pushing this this kind of argument of well, we need to protect all students from sexually explicit material. And in quotes, too, because they're using that and what they do is they'll go to board of Ed meetings and read just very selective passages that they can say, oh, this is sexually explicit without the context of the overall book itself.
17:49 – 18:26
Carlos Childs
So, what happened recently at the last school board meeting is that there was a policy that, or a public policy proposal that one of the school board members put up. And this wouldn't just ban banned books. This this policy proposal was made to stop books from even going on library shelves. What they had this do would set up multiple committees and different per school that would have to, one mandate that the entire committee before putting a single book on the shelf have to read that entire book.
18:27 – 18:51
Carlos Childs
So just imagine a public-school library that could have hundreds or thousands of books in it making a committee's job to read every single book before it even goes on the shelf, which is insane to think about. But it's even worse when you think about that, the main group that is pushing this policy, they've been on Facebook trying to crowdsource people to read books that they want to ban.
18:51 – 19:07
Carlos Childs
So, if they can't even do it on their own time, how do they expect people in a committee and work environment to read every single book before it's on the shelf? And from what a lot of activists and this awesome are saying, the main goal of this is, is to stop having books in the library at all.
19:07 – 19:45
Carlos Childs
So, I guess if they can't win the ban fight, we'll just not have public school libraries. And then also, for the books I guess that they are they're able to read that they consider sexually explicit that in high schools what they would have do is, is create a separate section of the library that has a sticker on each book that says sexually explicit and have it in a separated part of the library that if you're under the age of 18, which most high school students are, you would need a parent's permission to actually be able to either read or check out that book as well.
19:45 – 20:13
Carlos Childs
Then further putting barriers or putting people in or students in unsafe situations where they may not be able to tell their parents, hey, can you sign this, this permission slip for me to read a book related to like LGBTQ stuff. And then the other weird, weird part of it is that their definition of a library. Their definition of a library went from what we all know as like the library in the school to anywhere where books are kept for reading.
20:13 – 20:35
Carlos Childs
So, a teacher's classroom is also now considered a library. And one of the and one of the teachers actually who testified against this policy brought up, under this definition, what you're going to see is, so will we classify a student's locker as a library because books are kept there or will their bookbag be considered a library?
20:35 – 20:53
Carlos Childs
And is the school going to dedicate resources to people to go through every locker and every book back to make sure they don't have this quote-on-quote, sexually explicit books that they want to see? But one of the most positive things out of all of this was there at the last school board meeting when there was a public comment period, the one odd thing was they limited public comment to only 20 people.
20:54 – 21:24
Carlos Childs
So, the hearing was at 3:30pm. People were saying by like 1:30pm, all 20 slots had been filled. People already came to sign up. But the great thing was, out of all of the 20 public speakers, 17 of them were against this policy. It was a combination of teachers, parents, students, faculty, librarians came out to actually say no, this is horrible.
21:24 – 22:01
Carlos Childs
Like, like we are trained, we went to school and have the education to curate these are libraries. For you to go and try to work us is actually defeating the purpose of making sure that we not just have an inclusive learning environment, but we open students up to a myriad of books that not just go along with their family's preconceived notions, but also challenge some of their own thoughts to say, okay, maybe I read something and it makes me look at the world differently or set me up for a more diverse world and not just a closed off mindset of this is the only way things work.
22:01 – 22:30
Carlos Childs
So, in the end, the actual sponsor of the policy said that they're going to rework the policy, I guess, to make it not sound as bad as it is. So, everyone's gearing up now for the next school board meeting to do it all over again. And then the good thing is people on the ground were saying, hey, we will keep doing this until we, until you either stand down or they just vote the policy down.
22:31 – 22:53
Nehemiah Bester
Yeah, like this to me sounds like so archaic. Like when you just like limiting intellectual curiosity, because you want students and children to be able to challenge some of their own thoughts and behaviors, you know, especially when it comes to a system of institutionalism. You know, so that to me is, is just so so bizarre.
22:53 – 23:22
Carlos Childs
Exactly. And one of the things, too, is a lot of people pointed out if parents don't want their children to read a certain book, have a conversation with your child. That is not something where you should feel like I need a mandate so no child gets to read a certain book. And also, there are already policies and procedures in place to basically stop your child from being from being able to check out certain books.
23:22 – 23:38
Carlos Childs
So, they're doing this to kind of force for their own personal or religious ideology on all students when not taking into consideration, you should only have control over what your child reads. Not everyone else.
23:39 – 24:17
Nehemiah Bester
Right. You're the parent of the children you parent not everyone else’s. So one more question I wanted to ask you, Carlos. Probably one of the more important questions. But, you know, if the things that we mentioned today, we talked about, if they don't work. Like the system, as we know, a lot of times it hasn't worked for students, you know, but if it doesn't after, you know, these whoever listens to this, after these recommendations, how can they get help and how can the ACLU of Maryland assist in any of that help?
24:18 – 25:02
Carlos Childs
Yeah, well, we definitely always tell students, parents, whoever is listening, that one thing is no matter how you're being treated, we want you to one, stay calm and just comply with any direct orders that you're given from the school system. As long as it doesn't stop your ability to a challenge that later on, but also keep detailed documentation of anything that any paperwork that was that was given to you any phone calls you have with school staff members. Anything that a child is going through keep detailed documents of what happened, where, what time, all of it, and then also contact the ACLU of Maryland Complaint Line with all of your documentation as well.
25:02 – 25:31
Carlos Childs
And then also to let people know that any information that you that you share with us is 100% confidential. It stays between you and us. We do not share that out with people. And if we are able to, we will definitely provide different services and different recommendations on how to move forward, whether it be through conversations with the school system, legally, whether it be through community outreach, however.
25:32 – 25:45
Nehemiah Bester
Perfect love everything you just said. Last thing, if you've had, if you've gone to any of the Pride events this month, how have they been? Have you been enjoying any of the events that you've been at in the state?
25:45 – 26:11
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, they've been amazing. And I do want to shout out Charles County's Pride event we actually had. It's crazy, Charles County has been around for all these years. We actually just had our first Pride event in May. It was actually put on by the Health Department. It was a prep for our Pride. So, they were telling people how to get prep and know their health status, but also just engage with the different community members.
26:11 – 26:33
Carlos Childs
It was just amazing. We had a table there, but just seeing how many students were there, how many just parents, how many, just like not even LGBTQ members, but just like, just your cis straight, straight people who would say, hey, hey, I'm supporting because either my child's LGBTQ or my cousin is, or I'm not, no one that they know in their family is.
26:33 – 26:53
Carlos Childs
But hey, I'm just here to have fun and support a community within my county. So, I think that was probably the most amazing thing. And it was it was huge. I mean, I think they were talking about they were they did not know how many people would show up and from just what all of us saw around probably 1,000 people who showed up, they had a march to.
26:54 – 27:10
Carlos Childs
It was amazing and really powerful. And I know people are already talking about so, what's happening next year? How are we going to keep doing this? And I'm looking forward to, it's a Southern Maryland Pride that's going on in October as well, too. So, its definitely stuff going on throughout the year that I'm looking forward to.
27:10 – 27:26
Nehemiah Bester
Yeah, I'm so looking forward to the Pride Parade that is going on in Baltimore this weekend. So, and it's always great to be around community, you know, to learn from one another and also just to just to let some steam off like to have some fun, you know, like it's just great to be in the street.
27:26 – 27:34
Nehemiah Bester
But this has been a great conversation. Carlos, thank you so much for joining me. And appreciate all the great work that you've been doing.
27:35 – 27:43
Carlos Childs
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for providing this this space and really let out some really good messages and be in community. So, this is awesome. Thank you so much.
27:48 – 28:20
Nehemiah Bester
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Thinking Freely. If you liked this conversation, please feel free to leave a like, comment, and share to your networks. We also have a new Pride centered playlist available on our website and social platforms, so be sure to go check that out. And lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to Thinking Freely wherever you get your podcast. This show was recorded on Piscataway land. I’m Nehemiah Bester, the host and producer of Thinking Freely. Until next time, and happy Pride.
Thinking Freely, ACLU of Maryland's podcast, informs Marylanders about what's happening politically – from the courts to the streets – so they can get involved and realize a more equitable Maryland for all.
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The podcast transcript is available below.
Starting on July 1, 2023, marijuana will officially become legalized in Maryland for adults 21 and up. This also includes a new law that bans police stops and searches based on the alleged smell of marijuana. But is that enough for Maryland to become a model for marijuana and racial justice? In this episode, we'll examine that question and see if marijuana reparations are possible for those communities most harmed by the "War on Drugs" – a war whose ramifications are still felt today.
On this episode of Thinking Freely, you'll hear from:
Produced and hosted by: Nehemiah Bester, communications strategist, ACLU of Maryland
This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:19
Michele Hall
How we've gotten here is that there is no trust between communities of color and law enforcement. But what I hope is that we are really forcibly refocusing law enforcement away from relying on marijuana and its connections to black criminality, to police our communities.
00:25 - 00:52
Nehemiah Bester
You listening to Thinking Freely with the ACLU of Maryland. The show that talks about what's happening politically in Maryland, from the courts to the streets and everywhere in between. I'm your host Nehemiah Bester. Marijuana, let's talk about it. In 2022, Maryland voters overwhelmingly decided that it was time for marijuana to be legalized for recreational use. But let's be real.
00:53 - 01:21
Nehemiah Bester
That should have happened years ago. Since 2014, marijuana has been decriminalized in the state for possession of ten grams or less. Specifically, black and brown people who were searched at a rate of 2.41 times higher than whites. And that research only came four years after decriminalization. On top of this, marijuana legalization has opened the door to for profit businesses with local stores and industries using financial gain from the substance.
01:21 - 01:44
Nehemiah Bester
The unfortunate truth of it is, is that there seem to have always been two very different realities of marijuana use with black and brown people use it, it's criminalized. The very intentional racist war on drugs created by President Nixon was used to target black people specifically, but when white people use it, not only are consequences less severe, it's seen more as medicinal and now profitable.
01:46 - 02:14
Nehemiah Bester
This gets into another issue on marijuana reparations for those communities that are owed for their constant persecution and community destruction over a commonly used plant. The ACLU of Maryland acted fast this legislative session to push for legislation that put an end to these outdated laws, including ending stops and searches over the alleged smell of marijuana, which police have long used as a precursor to justify their own violent crimes in communities this wants to serve.
02:15 - 02:36
Nehemiah Bester
To help us make sense of all of this. We have Michelle Hall, who's an Assistant Public Defender at the Maryland Office of the Public Defender, where she represents clients on appeal and engages in legislative advocacy, as well as Lawrence Grandpre the Director of Research for Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle, who focuses on police accountability and community based economic development.
02:37 - 02:38
Nehemiah Bester
Thanks for joining me, too.
02:39 - 02:40
Michele Hall
Thanks for having us.
02:42 - 03:09
Nehemiah Bester
So, Lawrence, I want to, I want to start with you. You've done tons of research on community-based development, particularly on drug policy and criminal justice. So even before Marylanders overwhelmingly voted to legalize recreational marijuana, right, in Maryland, there have been calls for reparations for those most impacted by the dangerous war on drugs. And, you know, we're talking about black people and the communities they reside in.
03:10 - 03:16
Nehemiah Bester
My question to you is, are marijuana reparations possible in our state?
03:16 - 03:40
Lawrence Grandpre
That's a good question. And the answer is yes. But I think part of the important thing to understand this definition of reparations differs depends on who you talk to. So many people sorry, under a lot of different definitions, reparations. But at the core of my definition of reparations is, I guess I'd probably say two things. First, it is not just a recognition of guilt.
03:41 - 04;02
Lawrence Grandpre
Apology really doesn't matter to me. That's just words. These are things that are very important to other forms of definitions of reparations from the United Nations. One of the most important things for me, I will say the first thing is the promise of non-repetition, as in if we recognize if there has been a historical harm. You have to build structures of accountability to not have attacking again or not keep doing it.
04:03 - 04:33
Lawrence Grandpre
Well, of course, reparations essentially try to do is just funding and don't actually deal with the systemic systems causing the violence. The violence can continue. So, I would say the first thing upon repetition, the second thing is that the people who are aggrieved by the harm have to choose for themselves the mechanism of redress for the harm. And I think that's critically important because many of the calls for reparation essentially are just giving people money, either cash payments or giving already existing institutions money.
04:34 - 05:01
Lawrence Grandpre
And when you think about the war on drugs, part of the research we've done about the war on drugs talks about the hollowing out of community capacity as one of the critical impacts of the war on drugs. So, you think about all the people who that's why we started community groups, nonprofit businesses. They were literally in jail. So, what you create when you just see funding as reparations is either cash payments, which are not politically popular, very difficult to logistically do.
05:01 - 05:31
Lawrence Grandpre
And when presented, largely end up, people buying sustenance goods or luxury goods, that then that money flows out of the community very quickly, doesn't build institutional capacity to protect the community. There's more political power long term. Or if you just see is funding, we it would do is it creates basically the existing institutional apparatus. This if you call the nonprofit industrial complex, the white savior industrial complex, is basically just a blank check for them to continue to provide services to the community, which many people deem to services themselves as problematic...
05:31 - 06:11
Lawrence Grandpre
...racist, reflective of black pathology, community and capacity. So the call for reparations, the war on drugs, I think maybe because people didn't use the word reparations, but it goes back, you know, decades to at least the seventies when people talked about, you know, the beginning of the heroin epidemic and seeing the joblessness that many Black soldiers coming home from Vietnam came home to and saying this is the beginning of methadone. Saying you can't just give us methadone and ignore what you're doing to the community, can't just give us methadone and ignore what you're doing to the Black Panthers, can't just give us methadone and ignore the larger systemic reality that drive people to addiction.
06:11 - 06:46
Lawrence Grandpre
And now you have visions of reparations that often use things like methadone expansion itself, reparations. While many of the Black elders in the space talks like Mutula Shakur, a political prisoner in New York, was recently released after 40 years of incarceration. He was doing addiction care in his community, specifically questioning methadone and using things like acupuncture. But also, more importantly, political conscientization through the Black Panthers taking over the weekend detox clinic that was their vision of liberatory methodology instead of the public health community supporting that
06:46 - 07:05
Lawrence Grandpre
through reparations frame. The public health community teamed up with the New York Rockefeller Republicans to shut down the clinic that would choose to cooperate in New York. The Panthers and the Young Lords took over this clinics, and public health people assisted the Rockefeller Republicans to take it down, because those folks were against methadone. Methadone was what these people had built their careers off of.
07:06 - 07:26
Lawrence Grandpre
So, the reality is that we can't allow a nonprofit system which is largely hostile to the concept that Black people have the ability to solve their own problems. Giving them money cannot be the limit of how we define reparations. So, it has to be bottom-up community control. We've been centering all that here in Baltimore and Maryland.
07:26 - 07:47
Nehemiah Bester
I want to shift gears a little bit. So, Michelle here's a clip from the ACLU of Maryland Public Policy Director Yanet Amanuel during our 2023 Grassroots Legislative Priorities Presentation a few months ago. She talks about what policy changes are needed to make a difference for racial justice in marijuana legalization.
07:48 - 08:10
Yanet Amanuel
The other bill that we'll be working on this session is also a marijuana related issue, and that is to eliminate criminal penalties for possession with intent to distribute and possessing over the civil use amount, which is 2.5 ounces. Under the current law, possession with intent to distribute and possession of more than a civil use amount, which is 2.5 ounces, can still result in a misdemeanor conviction.
08:10 - 08:32
Yanet Amanuel
Such convictions carry a penalty of for possession is six months in jail and $1,000 fine and intent to distribute is punishable by three years imprisonment and a $5,000 fine. Without limiting these penalties, Black people will be vulnerable to existing arrest patterns where they will continue to be disproportionately targeted by police and criminal penalties despite marijuana legalization.
08:32 - 09:03
Yanet Amanuel
Last year sensing trends in Maryland circuit courts for marijuana offenses over the last decade was released and it revealed that nearly 50% of people charged with felony or misdemeanor offenses that charge was their first entanglement with the criminal legal system, meaning that they didn't have any prior records. And the overwhelming majority of these folks are Black. Additionally, we've seen through every step of both the decriminalization in Maryland and legalization nationwide that racial disparities in arrests and enforcement will persist through every outlet possible.
09:03 - 09:38
Yanet Amanuel
Thus, without eliminating these penalties, we will only have partial legalization and have made no progress in accomplishing the goal of racial justice and stopping this racist enforcement of our marijuana laws. Which is why the members of the MGA said that they were prioritizing legalizing Maryland to begin with. So, in 2023, the ACLU, Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle, the Office of the Public Defender and our allies will work on a bill, to pass a bill that eliminates these penalties and designates possession of more than the civil use amount and possession with intent to distribute subject to citations and civil fines rather than a criminal conviction.
09:39 - 10:01
Nehemiah Bester
Given that clip, even though criminalization for the recreational use of marijuana is ending, there still seem to be criminal penalties for possession over the civil use amount, civil use limit and possession with intent to distribute. So, my question is, what's the hope for next session to ensure that we eliminate criminal penalties for marijuana?
10:02 - 10:23
Michele Hall
Well, I certainly hope that our sponsors from this past year, Delegate Davis and Senator Carter, as Yanet had mentioned in the clip, will reintroduce their bills that would have eliminated the criminal penalties for possession over a civil use amount and possession with intent to distribute. And, you know, really, for us, this is a matter of fundamental fairness, right?
10:23 - 10:49
Michele Hall
If we have something that is legal, it's legal to go into the store and purchase this product and it should not continue to be subject to criminal penalties for engaging in the cannabis market, even if it may be outside of what is in the legalized scheme. The legislature over the past couple of years has started doing a racial equity impact note, which talks about the race-based impacts of different pieces of legislation and bills.
10:0 - 11:16
Michele Hall
And the note for this bill this passed session made really clear that although national data shows that the lifetime cannabis use of Black people is actually less than their white counterparts, Black people are disproportionately arrested and convicted of cannabis crimes. And that disparity is also true in Maryland. In Maryland we have a 29% Black people are 29% of the state's population, but 59% of the cannabis possession arrests.
11:16 - 11:42
Michele Hall
And so, reducing the penalties related to possession and possession with intent to distribute cannabis really balances I think the state's interest in regulating the cannabis marketplace, making sure that people are engaging in the legal marketplace while not criminalizing people for engaging outside of that marketplace. And ultimately, we have something that it's in the state's interest to bring a cannabis marketplace here, right, Because it's an economic boon.
11:43 - 12:10
Michele Hall
But with that, we can't continue to have the disparate surveillance enforcement and arrests in Black communities for cannabis use. And one thing that, you know, I think some people would say, well, if people are possessing, you know, the personal use amount of illegal amount, then this is not a problem. Ultimately, I think there are incentives for police and law enforcement to characterize things that are part of just personal use of cannabis as possession with intent to distribute.
12:10 - 12:37
Michele Hall
Right. And so, if you and some of the things that are in HB 1071, which I know we'll talk about shortly, are meant to get at that, right? So, it used to be that if an officer saw you in possession of a drug and having cash then therefore, you're engaged in possession with intent to distribute because cash in proximity to a drug necessarily means that you're selling drugs. Not taking into account that large parts of our communities,
12:37 - 13:03
Michele Hall
right, are not necessarily using banks are going to cash checking storefronts and getting cash in that type of way. And if you want to go and purchase cannabis with cash, that should not all of a sudden have you exposed to being charged with possession with intent to distribute. And so, there are incentives in order to, again, be able to surveil and force and arrest individuals in Black communities to characterize things
13:03 - 13:25
Michele Hall
that in white communities, I think would very easily be seen as part of legal cannabis use. And all of a sudden that as is seen as possession with intent to distribute. And so, without coming back and being sure to eliminate criminal penalties for cannabis, I think that's a risk that is still going to exist. And so hopefully we'll be able to next session still work on that piece.
13:26 - 13:53
Nehemiah Bester
I want to I want to switch really quickly to you, Lawrence. So given that what Michele was just describing, you know, especially about the community aspect of that. On the topic of local campaigns and grassroots organizations and funding, what are the key components of accountable community control plans for the marijuana repair funds? Like how and how can people get involved and be a part of making this happen?
13:53 - 14:23
Lawrence Grandpre
That's a really good question. So, I've been studying this issue since 2014, and I started studying it because it was clear to me that new money is a political opportunity to fund grassroots organizations. And so, part of the reason I was able to do that is because, like our organization is not a nonprofit. So many foundations did not want to give money for people to advocate on cannabis bills because it's still federally illegal.
14:24 - 14:56
Lawrence Grandpre
So, after the bill passes, they'll give some people money to do the social justice implementation of the bill, but actually crafting the bill, writing the policies very few foundations have an appetite for that. So, all over the country, the Cannabis Reinvestment Provisions passed without the typical cadre of social justice grassroots organizations that foundation funded being present. And many of those examples vary in their success, but many of them share certain characteristics that we felt delayed them and prevented them from being considered reparations that we tried to correct here in Maryland.
14:56 - 15:18
Lawrence Grandpre
So, one of which is that it was very much centrally controlled. This is part of the new technocratic, top-down vision of social justice that we need to have the money centralized in state capitals where academics and nonprofit people can choose where the money goes because there's a general distrust of local decision makers and people on the ground because they're not seen as enlightened and not seen as intelligent.
15:19 - 15:47
Lawrence Grandpre
In our experience, looking at examples like Illinois was really just the exact opposite, where they had a very highly resourced fund. So, they put 30% of the tax revenue there but the fund was largely fast for political appointees and certain hand-selected representatives of essentially a nonprofit industrial complex. And this produced results where people who were already resourced nonprofits got a majority of the money in some Black churches right.
15:47 - 16:06
Lawrence Grandpre
And that's not even necessarily bad. That's not reparations to the war on drugs. reparations for the war on drugs means that the type of people who may have gone to jail for cannabis possession or attempt to distribute are going to be preferred in the decision-making process when these grants go out. But we got the opposite. You to have three years of financial statements.
16:06 - 16:30
Lawrence Grandpre
You need to have evaluations for your programs, claiming your using evidence based on best practices. All of these seemingly race neutral conceptual criteria on who gets money that they weaponized, and its grassroots organizations on the ground. So, what we're doing here in Maryland is that we're having the pile of money, just 35% being divvied up in proportion to by locality and have the money be given to localities not centralized in the state governments.
16:31 - 16:57
Lawrence Grandpre
And this is basically theorized that given the demographics of how people get elected in different state legislatures, you have more juice, with your local elected official than with your state elected officials. Most people can't get to the state capital. most people have never been to Annapolis. The city council races are decided by a few thousand votes or a few hundred votes rather than a few thousand votes, the amount of money that goes into these races are different, and people just know these people.
16:57 - 17:15
Lawrence Grandpre
Even if you don't like them, they know. They know what they are. They know what they can get to them. They know people that know these people. And it's just there are 15 of them in the council rather than just like the one or two or three people in your district. So, you just have the ability to magnify your social capital locally, to influence local politics differently than state politics.
17:16 - 17:42
Lawrence Grandpre
So that's going to be a proportional divvying up of the funds. And the funds will be given to locality. These localities must pass an ordinance by the county council or city council that dictates how the funds will be used to enumerate the harms the war on drugs within certain guardrails. So, it can't go with policing, it can't go to replace already allocated in the budget and can't kind of play budget shell games used to fill gaps in your existing budget.
17:43 - 18:05
Lawrence Grandpre
And importantly, it doesn't just go to the executive because the other criticism we saw is that many times the executive is seen as the safe place to put money. We have these things in Maryland called local management boards, and they actually take a large chunk of state, federal and foundation money given to localities. And these often times led by political appointees in the executive.
18:05 - 18:27
Lawrence Grandpre
So, the idea that we're doing here in Baltimore City that we want to replicate statewide, if we're doing a reparations commission and reparations commission will have one representative from every city council, district and reparations commission will be tasked with studying the longitudinal impact of the war on drugs in Baltimore City and producing recommendations for what should be funded to repair that harm.
18:28 - 19:00
Lawrence Grandpre
So, within the framework of the policy, what folks need to do with they need to talk to whoever it is at the local level in city governance or county governance they have a connection to and tell them that they need to pass the ordinance to get this money once it starts flowing in July of 2024. And we need to be part of that process because whoever holds that money needs to be very clear with the decision-making criteria need to be. We've done things in Baltimore that say things like you should not have to have a 501c3 status already, that's very prohibitive.
19:00 - 19:22
Lawrence Grandpre
You should not need to have, you know, what are the audited statements and the executive capacity to open the fiscal sponsorship. We need to have money allocated to incubate applicants. Taking public money is very difficult. There's lots of strings attached to. So, if you want grassroots people to receive the money, they have to be given incubation and technical support to learn how to take this money.
19:22 - 19:44
Lawrence Grandpre
And if you're not doing those things, you're not doing a model that we think reflects reparations. So whatever people want to see in the bill, you have an opportunity to push locally in Maryland to have your locality implement a process that reflects what you think needs to happen. And that would not necessarily be the case with the money stuck in Annapolis.
19:44 - 20:11
Nehemiah Bester
I want to quickly go to you, Michele. Similarly on that same topic, but earlier, you briefly mentioned HB1071, you know, and that just passed just in time in the legislative session. Why was it so critical that Maryland passed this bill to end police stops and searches over the alleged smell of marijuana? If legalization was already on its way?
20:14 - 20:43
Michele Hall
Yeah. So, under the Fourth Amendment right, that is what regulates in that body of case law, regulates when police can conduct a stop or a search. And under Maryland cases, there had been a path created in the cases that have come out since 2014 when marijuana was first decriminalized, that basically said the odor of marijuana alone could be enough for a stop.
20:43 - 21:11
Michele Hall
So, a stop of a person and a search of a vehicle, as long as there were any marijuana related crimes and because odor, because there were still marijuana related crimes on the books. And at the time that the most recent case came out last June, marijuana was still contraband. Its odor alone could be indicative of contraband or perhaps a crime.
21:12 - 21:35
Michele Hall
Now, as we talked about earlier, right, we still have marijuana related crimes on the books, possessing more than the civil use amount possession with intent to distribute. And so even when marijuana was legalized, there was still a path for courts to be able to say, well, odor of marijuana can be indicative of a crime because we still have possession with intent to distribute and we still have possession over the civil use amount is a crime.
21:36 -22:00
Michele Hall
So, legalization alone did not fix this. And quite frankly, the way that so many of our clients come into contact with the system is because of the odor or the alleged odor of marijuana. You know, unlike other things, body cams, for better or worse, have changed a lot of things about policing. And one thing is that we have a check of being able to say, did this series of events happen the way that you said that it happened?
22:01 - 22:18
Michele Hall
There is no way, though, to verify or not if police smelled the odor of marijuana. And so, we regularly have police saying, oh, during the course of a traffic stop, I came up to the window and I smelled the odor of marijuana. And I use that as the basis to search a car. Maybe they find nothing. Maybe we find a handgun, maybe they find something else.
22:19 - 22:43
Michele Hall
I mean, all that evidence is automatically admissible, maybe. And a lot of times they have not found any marijuana, or they've maybe found a small, small roach, which I think there's a question of whether or not that is emitting any type of odor of marijuana, right. So, without this bill, we would have created a situation where people can go engage in this legal marketplace that we put a lot of time and energy into setting up.
22:43 - 23:07
Michele Hall
And they can go to the dispensary, they can buy weed, they can leave the store, they can have cannabis in their car, and then they can be stopped for rolling a stop sign. They can be stopped for failing to put on a turn signal and the police can come up and maybe they do smell marijuana or maybe they don't, but they just saw them leave the dispensary, so they know they have marijuana in the car and say, well, now I want to search your car because of the odor of marijuana.
23:07 - 23:39
Michele Hall
And there would be nothing that anyone would be able to do to challenge that, because that would likely continue to be seen as a legal stop or search. And so, this bill was important to put a stop to that and put a stop to that, at the same time, you know, that marijuana was going to be legalized. So, you know, I think the first thing is there's an open question of whether or not the courts were going to ultimately conclude and, you know, this was a lot of the pushback we got from the opposition is that the courts will ultimately decide this issue.
23:39 - 24:06
Michele Hall
And, you know, it would be they're going to say that it's not reasonable to do that anymore. Maybe they would, but maybe they wouldn't because of, again, that path that I explained that the case law took. But the other thing is that on July 1st, people are going to be able to legally possess marijuana. It takes a very long time for a case to wind its way through the courts in re D.D. which was the most recent case that was litigated on the odor of marijuana and was my case from the trial courts through all of the appeals.
24:06 - 24:32
Michele Hall
That case began in November of 2019, and we didn't get an opinion from the Supreme Court of Maryland until June 2022. So, you know, if we were to leave this to the courts, we could be talking about two and a half or three years until we get a final conclusion of whether or not conducting stops and searches based on the odor of marijuana alone was something that would still be permitted in the era of legalization.
24:32 - 24:58
Michele Hall
And in the meantime, people would continue to be stopped and searched. And that's that is the conduct that we want to prohibit. And mainly that's because there is a risk. Any time we're engaging with law enforcement, there's a risk. There's a risk, particularly for people of color. And we don't have to go into depth about the many, many encounters that have happened right in the course of a traffic stop that has escalated unnecessarily and someone has end up seriously injured or killed.
24:59 - 25:24
Michele Hall
And, you know, I think the most prescient thing that happened during the course of this legislative session was on the day that we had our final hearing on HB 1071 was the day that the Demonte Ward Blake excessive force lawsuit was settled with Prince George's County and Demonte Ward Blake was a Black man who, in the course of a traffic stop, was paralyzed by law enforcement.
25:24 - 25:52
Michele Hall
And the reason, one of the reasons that that traffic stop escalated was because of the alleged odor of marijuana. And so, on the same day that we had that hearing, Prince George's County settled that excessive force lawsuit with Demonte Ward Blake's family for $7.5 million. And so, we have a county admitting to liability, right, for harming this Black man for it in a traffic stop that escalated over the odor of marijuana.
25:52 - 26:11
Michele Hall
And we're talking about should the police, until someone else steps in and says something, still be able to stop people and search them based on the odor of marijuana? I mean, imagine the conflict. There's already conflict that happens right now with people saying you can’t search me. It doesn't make any sense that we have something that I can smoke.
26:11 - 26:28
Michele Hall
Right. We have medical marijuana. We have at least right now, there's, you know, civil penalties. In July there aren't going to be for under the personal use amount. You're telling me that I can have this, then you can use that to search my car? And people all the time are saying that isn't right because it doesn't make any sense.
26:28 - 27:00
Michele Hall
Now, imagine the number of incidents and escalations that would happen if we left that paradigm in place for legalization. You know, we don't want, no one should suffer what Demonte Ward Blake and his family had to suffer. And so a large part of this is making sure if we are going to, you know, take this step and the voters took the step to say, yes, we want legal marijuana, then that means that everyone needs to be able to engage in that marketplace and have that product without being at risk of being brutalized by the police and without and not even stepping that far
27:00 - 27:23
Michele Hall
right? Without being at risk of your right to privacy being intruded upon.
27:41 - 28:02
Nehemiah Bester
Right. And that's an excellent point that you made, because I was thinking about that and wondering, you know, because like when those stops occur, like it's almost like you are literally but also metaphorically opening the door for higher risk. And so, I want to end with this final question to the both of you.
28:02 - 28:16
Nehemiah Bester
Lawrence, I can start with you. When it when it comes to marijuana legalization, we know isn't just about legal justice, right, it's about racial justice like we just talked about. What would a racial justice center marijuana model look like?
28:17 - 28:46
Lawrence Grandpre
So, answering this question over the years what I’ve have typically said that it's a three-legged stool. I think one of which is resentencing and expungement and the criminal justice side. So obviously, very few people are actually in jail for pure cannabis possession or really just pure possession of a drug, especially in Maryland. We charge in units and if one, so you get charged with possession of drugs, also might be charged resisting arrest, carrying a firearm, carrying paraphernalia.
28:46 - 29:19
Lawrence Grandpre
Assaulting an officer, and if one thing in that unit is non expungable, the entire unit is non expungable. So, we've had multiple fights over the so-called unit rule and expungement in Maryland. And in fact, that's an incredible frustration with some of the criminal justice advocates with the cannabis people, because the cannabis advocates not understanding Maryland, working off models in other states will offer pretty banal, pretty weak expungement bills around cannabis, and then they'll pass to great fanfare, not realizing that for the mass majority of people, that's completely useless.
29:20 - 29:43
Lawrence Grandpre
Right? So, the idea is to not just have pro forma cannabis possession, expungement and resentencing. Cause almost no one goes to jail for just possessing cannabis, but actually deal with larger questions of if I have to carry a weapon to protect myself and my family contracts and unenforceable by the courts in the street gang. And if you don't pay back the person giving drugs, you can literally die.
29:44 - 30:11
Lawrence Grandpre
So, it raises complicated questions that social justice advocates don't like to have. To be like the perfect victim of the nonviolent drug possession offender. But we in Maryland have had conversations about having new sentencing hearings for people who not only have complex units of charges, including cannabis possession and intent to distribute, but also when you have cannabis production on your jacket, you may have in the future been charged with another unrelated crime but the previous possession of cannabis.
30:11 - 30:35
Lawrence Grandpre
may have been an escalator to give you a higher sentence for that future crime you committed, which isn't fair if we've now deemed cannabis to no longer be illegal. So, these resentencing hearings are very important, but they're very difficult and logistically time consuming. So having conversations now which have not been on the table, because we had a Republican governor about potential clemency and gubernatorial pardons is also on the table.
30:35 - 31:12
Lawrence Grandpre
The second leg of the stool is the business side. On the business side, it's very complicated. We don't have time to get into it. But the idea obviously is that for folks who want to engage in the cannabis economy. Folks who have a so-called legacy economy, who have been in the street game for years, maybe folks who have been growers who have particular strains or essentially intellectual property that they've branded over years, are they going to be able brought into the economy through a collaborative mechanism or been completely criminalized or be exploited in terms of, you know, people buying their brand name, people buying that intellectual property, using them as spokespeople, but essentially giving them pennies while
31:12 - 31:33
Lawrence Grandpre
these big, multi state operators make millions. There's no simple, easy way to do that, given that the Supreme Court is probably going to come down even harder on race specific policy in a few weeks now when they release that decision. But we're looking at a variety of mechanisms to ensure minority participation. And in the last leg in my mind is the community reinvestment reparations.
31:33 - 31:56
Lawrence Grandpre
Cause the point is that not everybody wants to sell cannabis legally, not everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. So, for the variety of people, and not everybody who was impacted by cannabis prohibition went to jail. This impacts entire communities when someone who goes to jail for cannabis possession or intent to distribute, they were a mother, a brother, a sister, a cousin, the father paying bills, buying diapers, paying rent.
31:57 - 32:19
Lawrence Grandpre
So, the entire community was destabilized by the hyper targeted, hyper incarceration produced by the war on drugs. So, you have to invest holistically in the entire community. We have a lot of liberal individualism in terms of how people conceptualize reparations. If you went to jail, you should get a check. That's not, for example, an African way of conceptualizing a community as a central political unit.
32:19 - 32:42
Lawrence Grandpre
And so, the idea of reparations for me is it has to function at a community holistic level and be able to employ people who maybe don't want to sell drugs, maybe they want to run a youth based nonprofit, maybe they went to a business entirely unrelated to cannabis. You need unrestricted funds to be able to fund those dreams that community has, and we typically get told we don't have any money, but now we do it because it's cannabis legalization tax revenue.
32:42 - 33:10
Lawrence Grandpre
So, the idea is to be able to invest holistically and not have to kind of red tape and bureaucracy that typically hamstrings these funds when they come from the federal level, related to others. It’s definitely not a perfect vehicle because state money can be very difficult to utilize, but it opens up possibilities that would otherwise be off the table because of the ways in which money is typically funneled very narrowly into programing and very narrowly into grants and very narrowly into very specific places.
33:10 - 33:20
Lawrence Grandpre
You have a whole more holistic criteria for why you need the aperture of what’s able to be funded and help people access this.
33:20 - 33:26
Nehemiah Bester
Same question to you, Michelle. What would a racial justice centered marijuana model look like in your opinion?
33:27 - 34:01
Michele Hall
So, I think throughout this incremental legalization journey here in Maryland, one of the things we've continually talked about is how this is meant to start to ameliorate the war on drugs, the disparate enforcement in communities of color, and meant to refocus the police away from enforcing low level marijuana laws to focusing more on more violent crime and serious crime that is impacting our communities.
34:02 - 34:31
Michele Hall
One of the things that Yanet that would constantly say throughout the hearings this session is that, you know, relying on order alone is incentivizing lazy policing and lazy law enforcement, because being able to use the alleged odor of marijuana as like a blank check, and that's how I started talking about it towards the end, right. Is that really this was a blank check to be able to stop people, harass people, search their cars, you know, question them in those types of things.
34:31 - 34:53
Michele Hall
Right. And so, what I really hope that in what we have started to do and there's still more work to be done, but I hope that what we've made clear through passing these bills this session is that we don't want law enforcement to rely on low hanging fruit. I think relying on marijuana is another iteration of broken window’s policing.
34:53 - 35:13
Michele Hall
Right. And saying that if you're getting at these low-level crimes that are related to marijuana or with the investigation starts based on marijuana, and maybe you are finding something more serious, like a gun, who as like Lawrence was saying, right. Sometimes I have a gun because my community is unsafe, and I don't trust law enforcement to protect me and therefore I have a gun.
35:13 - 35:30
Michele Hall
But I am not using it in any type of violent crime or I'm not using it, I'm not going out and robbing people and something like that, but I'm just driving around and possessing a gun, which, you know, in some communities would be seen as your Second Amendment right and communities of color is seen as you need to be caged right.
35:30 - 36:07
Michele Hall
And so, I want us to remove the focus from marijuana and say how if we're going to continue to have this model of law enforcement of policing that we have, how do we use that to actually get at and focus on violent crime and the roots of violent crime that is causing harm in our communities? Because whenever you stop someone based on the odor of marijuana and frisk them and maybe you find nothing or maybe you find something, what you are engendering is a feeling of unfairness and a feeling of like, I'm they're just messing with me just to mess with me.
36:07 - 36:30
Michele Hall
And most of the time it is. And therefore, when something more serious happens, I'm not going to cooperate with you and work with you because you're the same person that was just harassing me off of the odor of marijuana last week or is lying and saying that you smelled marijuana when you know that you didn't. And so how we've gotten here is that there is no trust between communities of color and law enforcement.
36:30 - 36:55
Michele Hall
And it's a shame that we have had to forcibly remove these low hanging fruit tools that law enforcement relies on to say no, you need to do something, something different. And I'm not saying that I think policing is going to save us or anything else. But what I hope is that we are really forcibly refocusing law enforcement away from relying on marijuana and its connections to Black criminality
36:56 - 37:18
Michele Hall
to police our communities and are hopefully moving towards a model where we are actually investigating and engaging at solving the real roots of violence in our communities. And that's the thing that will be helpful. So, I guess the real answer is that I think the racial justice centered marijuana model is like removing marijuana from any type of justice.
37:18 - 37:37
Michele Hall
And I will be very glad when I see a lot less cases where marijuana is playing any type of role. And I think every time I see those cases now, I roll my eyes because I know and I would always say and I still continue to say, right, I started my career as a trial attorney in Prince George's County, and I never saw a marijuana case, at the University of Maryland.
37:37 - 37:58
Michele Hall
But don't tell me that they're not smoking weed there, right. It's because of where law enforcement is choosing to put those resources. And I hope that now that we're saying this is not a priority and in fact, it's not even a crime, that law enforcement does something different, and marijuana is removed from this model of policing in our communities.
37:59 - 38:18
Nehemiah Bester
Right. It doesn't seem like that should be a priority for the state of Maryland at all. So hopefully we're headed in that direction in the next year in the next couple of years. But I want to thank you so much for your perspectives, it's so needed during this time. And I appreciate all the work that you all do. So, thank you.
38:19 - 38:19
Lawrence Grandpre
Thank you.
38:20 - 38:27
Michele Hall
Thank you. And thank you for having us.
38:27 - 38:47
Nehemiah Bester
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Thinking Freely. If you like this conversation, please feel free to leave a like, comment and share to your networks. And lastly, don't forget to subscribe to Thinking Freely wherever you get your podcasts. This show was recorded on Piscataway land. I’m Nehemiah Bester, the host and producer of Thinking Freely, see you next time.
Thinking Freely, ACLU of Maryland's podcast, informs Marylanders about what's happening politically – from the courts to the streets – so they can get involved and realize a more equitable Maryland for all.
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Date
Tuesday, June 13, 2023 - 3:00pm
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Commentary: The smell of marijuana and the stain of racism
A War on Marijuana, or a War on Black Communities?
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The podcast transcript is available below.
What's being called a modern day Indian Removal, the Wild Turkey Clan of the Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indians in Maryland are being forced off their land by the Charles County government – the very land that belongs to the Piscataway Conoy People and that the Band has taken care of for decades.
On this episode we speak with Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor on the harmful impacts of this removal and how people can get involved to end this eviction.
TAKE ACTION
Learn more on the Cedarville Band of the Piscataway Indians, Inc. website. Then, send a message to the Charles County Board of Commissioners. Tell them to stop the eviction.
Learn more Take action
WATCH THE VIDEO
The video transcript is available here.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
00:00
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
We go back more than 10,000 years on the property and then to have that just snatched away from you after all your hard work. And for this, the government to come in and now say, Oh, we've decided we don't want you here anymore, please get out. You have 30 days to get out. My first reaction to that was to cry, to physically cry.
00:27
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
And then I got angry because I don't understand why they're doing this. And then, of course, I had to sit into I need to do what whatever I'm being asked to do.
00:47
Nehemiah Bester
You're listening the thinking Freely with the ACLU of Maryland, the show that talks about what's happening politically in Maryland from the courts, to the streets and everywhere in between. I'm your host, Nehemiah Bester.
01:04
Nehemiah Bester
Just the other day I was thinking about my childhood growing up and how we used to sing songs in elementary school. And I remembered this one song in particular that went something like, “this land is your land, this land is my land.” And I always thought it was a peculiar song and for some reason, even at that age I felt it did not apply to me. I identify as a Black man, and it's common knowledge why I felt that way as a kid given this country's past horrors in the name of white supremacy. But there was another strange element to this song being taught to children. I did some research and it's sung by a white man named Woody Guthrie. And if you've ever heard or sung this song yourself, you know that it's meant to be patriotic and unifying.
01:49
Nehemiah Bester
But in the process, it becomes colonial. It's one of those “God Bless America” anthems, and it's often those types of anthems that ignore what's right in front of them. As a song has been recognized by indigenous groups as problematic and an erasure of indigenous culture and land. Even if that wasn't Guthrie's intention. When we talk about Indigenous land seizure, many people will go back to U.S. President Andrew Jackson in his signing of the Indian Removal Act in May of 1830.
02:21
Nehemiah Bester
But if there's one thing that this country is good at, much like the lyrics to “This Land is Your Land” is that American history not only repeats, it often rhymes. The Wild Turkey Clan of the Citadel Band of Piscataway Indians in Maryland are being forced to experience a similar historic rhyme - but in the present day. They are currently being evicted by the Charles County government on the very land that belonged to the Piscataway Conoy people, and that the band has tended for decades.
02:53
Nehemiah Bester
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor is a born member of the Wild Turkey Clan, her grandmother Gladys Keeper of the Pipe was Clan Mother until her crossing over. Her Mother Joan is the current Clan Mother. She has spent most of her life providing services to the various Piscataway Communities and her work has involved serving with the National Congress of American Indians, Assistant Coordinator for the Prince Georges County Indian Education Program, and numerous other committees in Maryland to address the lack of recognition, indigenous inherent rights, self-government and policies that have adverse impact on Maryland's Indigenous communities. Our conversation was recorded at their historic cultural center which has been largely vacated due to the removal of their ancestral artifacts.
03:19
Nehemiah Bester
So first, I want to thank you for giving your time to share this story and space with me. On behalf of everyone at the ACLU of Maryland it's truly a pleasure to be here, so thank you. Before we get started, would you like to give some history about the land, yourself, and the Cedarville Band?
03:57
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Sure. Thank you. I would first like to introduce myself. I am Wild Turkey Clan. Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indians. I serve as the tribal chair and the executive director for the Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indians Inc. My name is Natalie, Standingontherock Proctor. The land that we are talking about, actually, all of Maryland is Piscataway’s territory, but in particular the Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indiansprobably about 200 years began to settle permanently in the area now known as Brandywine. But prior to that, it was known as Cedarville.
04:49
Nehemiah Bester
Thank you so much for that introduction Tribal Chairwoman. Can you briefly describe to me what this ongoing issue is? What's occurring?
04:59
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Yeah. So, first of all, let me give a little history. In 1979, the Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indians inquired to the General Service Administration about this particular site. At the because it's a prior NIKE site, which means not shoes, but base and the base had been abandoned and it had been abandoned for about ten years. So it was not being used at all. This was the perfect site as it is adjacent to Cedarville State Park, and it is a part of our traditional homeland. And so we reached out to the GSA in regards to what they would be doing with this property. And they said as of that time, there was no plans for the property. We asked if it would be okay if we were to take over the property for Indigenous purposes and that permission was given.
06:11
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
In 1988 Charles County then purchased the property and then the organization began to lease from Charles County. So we've been leasing this property from the county, what, 35, 40 years. But in January of 2023, we received an email late in the evening that we had 30 days to get off the property. Needless to say, I just went into shock. I don't know what's happening, what has happened, what has caused this. There's been no talk prior to this or anything of the kind, and it just sent us into a frenzy, of course. Trying to one, talk to the county commissioners to find out what has happened and two trying to move out of this space or within the 30 day time frame that they gave us. So this has been ongoing since January and we are trying with every bit of our being to negotiate, talk and whatever we need to do to try to maintain our presence on this land.
07:25
Nehemiah Bester
Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it goes without saying that this is a terrible situation.
07:31
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Very, very, very bad. If you're able, can you share, your emotions, how you all are feeling in the midst of this, how are the other band members doing?
07:45
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
If you think about the longevity of just the present-day presence on this property. We go back more than 10,000 years on the property, but if we can just bring it up to the present day, we're nearing 50 years on the property and one can imagine how close we are to not the building, not so much the museum, but the land itself has great significance to us. It is our traditional homeland and the excitement of being able to come to this land, create this museum, create this Cultural Center, host hundreds of activities and programs and things, all of which have been open to the public schools, tours and the like. And then to have that just snatched away from you after all your hard work. We pay dues to ourselves and the like in order to repair this building, keep the grounds going. Everything has been on our own efforts to keep this building going for the past almost, again, 50 years. And for this, the government to come in and now say, Oh, we've decided we don't want you here anymore.
09:05
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Please get out. You have 30 days to get out. My first reaction to that was to cry. To physically cry. And then I got angry because I don't understand why they're doing this. And then, of course, I had to set into, I need to do what whatever I'm being asked to do. So, I speak for all clan and band members. This is very, very sad time and a hurtful time and reminds us of many, many years ago when our ancestors were pushed from one spot to the next, always having to make room for settlers coming to the new world.
09:48
Nehemiah Bester
Right so you bring up the historical context. And I think it's pretty clear that history has never looked kindly on the seizure of indigenous land. Right? So how do you think history will judge Charles County and its officials if this eviction continues?
10:06
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Well, I think that, let's say 300 years ago when settlers first started coming here, they if they supported indigenous people, there wasn't an outlet to do that. And so we were constantly dealing with the crown in England, number one, and then later on, of course, a established government here. But today, I believe that more people are really, really want the government to be transparent, want the government to be fair to its indigenous people.
10:40
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
They've had an opportunity to hear Indigenous people speak about past traumas and past historical wrongs and maybe this is something they didn't even understand or knew about, but now they do. And now they're saying no more of this, no more of this kind of treatment. So I, I am actually calling this a modern day Indian Removal, which was established and put into law in 1830, May of 1830. And so it's kind of a repeat of that 1830 law. And people do not want that. And we have had great support asking the county to take back this eviction notice and to move forward on actually returning the land to the band.
11:35
Nehemiah Bester
So sort of just like you mentioned, if, for people who might not be super familiar. Right. If you were to describe to someone who didn't know much about this, like why this land is so sacred and why it's so important, what would be your answer?
11:54
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
It's our homeland. It has always been our homeland, whether we feel let me say this. A lot of people move different places from place to place, state to state. Piscataway people have not moved. They've always been here. They are very connected to this land. And I think that's most important. Our ancestors are here, our even our ancestors from thousands of years ago. They're here and we want to stay in this area with them.
12:30
Nehemiah Bester
And something else I wanted to ask you, are there, you all have such deep rooted ties and history to this land. Are there any specific memories of your experiences at this cultural center that you'd like to share?
12:49
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
There are lots of memories here. My favorite memories are the ones that where we had, powwow means a gathering of the people, and prior to European contact, those people were just us. And we continue to have those gatherings and we would have food and dance and stay up half the night laughing and talking and telling stories and even comparing historical traumas as well, knowing that the entire east coast, we all have very similar stories and this was a part of helping us to heal from these traumas as well.
13:34
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
These were the best times to me, in my opinion. But out of all the activities and programs that we've done, I'm sure there are other memories that. But we've had numerous celebrations here, naming ceremony names, birthing ceremonies and the like to keep us together. And a tribe is just a huge family and we're broken down into clans and bands and whether we all live in the same area or not when it comes to ceremonial practices and things of that sort, we all come together to celebrate.
14:11
Nehemiah Bester
No, it's actually like incredibly beautiful to hear that you all like, actually like you take care of the land as it takes care of you. Like it's a completely a mutual relationship. I want to get back to something that I wanted to discuss if and if it's, if it's not too painful to mention. Are there any hopes or plans that you have for the land if this eviction stopped?
14:36
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Oh, definitely. Last year, we were working on connecting with other agriculturalists and to begin to plant on this land indigenous plants and to create an indigenous environment on this property. We were also looking at putting out some traditional wigwams. In our language it just means house, but the round dome type of homes where people could actually spend the night and enjoy various activities throughout the day so they could spend the night for one night or they could spend the entire weekend.
15:21
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
We were looking to put in traditional waterways where people could just sit in calmness and just relax, because this world is constantly having us hustle and bustle and a consumer driven society and we did not live like that. So we want to kind of restore society and bringing us back to nature, bringing us back to our natural surroundings and a more calm way of living.
15:52
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
And so when they came, when they would come here, they would get all of that experience and find a true way of indigenous living through these activities and programs that we would sponsor.
16:06
Nehemiah Bester
So Tribal Chairwoman we've talked a lot about the eviction and the removal aspect of it. But I wanted to actually directly, aside from the eviction itself and the removal part of it, in what other ways has this eviction affected you personally, as well as your other tribe, clan, and band members?
16:31
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Thank you so much for asking that question. I think when a lot of people think about the powwows and the music and all of those activities and programs that we've sponsored here, we fail to understand that we are now minus our staff, those who take care of administrative things, those who have taken care of the property. We have a food bank that we provide food for tribal members and the community at large, as well as clothes and any other thing that they need.
17:10
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
You can support by writing a letter to the county commissioners. You can also support on May 30th. We'll be having a rally coming. Come if you're in the local area, join us on the Charles County Administrator Building and stand with us in our opposition of this eviction. We also could use donations. Again, we've lost our staff and the cost, the legal cost of this and the costs of storing valuable and sacred items that were held in our museum.
17:20
Nehemiah Bester
Last thing I want to ask you, what is the final message you want to leave everyone with, whether it's on your heart, on your mind? What is the message that you want to leave people with?
17:49
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
First of all, I want to thank the ACLU so very much for taking our calls and for being here in support of us. Second of all, I would like to thank all of Maryland citizens who have already voiced their opinion and opposition to this eviction. Thank you very, very much. I think a lot of people have already been here.
18:24
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
They've already experienced the powwow. They've already experienced the museum and there are many, many memories from Charles County citizens, Prince George's citizens and the like who have really enjoyed their time here. And I think that they would feel to have this taken away from them would be a great loss. And it goes back to the time of the very beginning of settlers where Indigenous people were being shoved here and there.
19:02
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
There wasn't an opportunity to really get to have that connection that we could both share our ideas of life and the like. So we have been trying to promote that for many, many years now, and I think it would be a great loss. And once again, I want to thank the ACLU and Maryland citizens for your support.
19:17
Nehemiah Bester
Tribal Chairwoman, thank you so much for joining me today.
19:43
Tribal Chairwoman Natalie Standingontherock Proctor
Thank you for having me.
20:18
Nehemiah Bester
This has been another episode of Thinking Freely with the ACLU of Maryland. If you'd like to learn more about and support the Cedarville Band of Piscataway Indians, visit their website at piscatawayindians.com and be sure to follow us and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This show was recorded on Piscataway land. I'm Nehemiah Bester, the host and producer of Thinking Freely, until next time.
Produced and hosted by: Nehemiah Bester, communications strategist, ACLU of Maryland
This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land.
Thinking Freely, ACLU of Maryland's podcast, informs Marylanders about what's happening politically – from the courts to the streets – so they can get involved and realize a more equitable Maryland for all.
SUBSCRIBE ON:
Apple Podcast | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Listen Notes | RadioPublic | Pandora
Date
Friday, May 26, 2023 - 10:45am
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ACLU Calls on Charles County to Stop April 9 Eviction of Indigenous People, Give Land Back
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